Perspectives that Matter

Pursuing dialogue about current issues from a perspective of faith informed by the character and principles of Jesus Christ.

1. Stevo Dereta 11.28.07 / 12pm

   You can expect as dramatic changes as someone’s misconceptions are dramatic. How many churches do you know with as misleading believes as theirs? There are many examples where churches have faced and are continuing to discuss their misconceptions, but fortunately most of them were as misled as the Worldwide Church of god was some years ago.
2. Jaro Belicka 11.28.07 / 12pm

   You are right on the ball about your suggestions. We all should be willing to change things which are not Biblical
   no matter what consequences. If the Reformers were not of that mind we would have never had reformations. I will watch the story about the Worldwide Church of God as soon as I can. I am aware of some changes they have faced after old Armstrong died and Tkach took over the leadership, and even more following his death. I am sure that you are aware what changes SDA Church went through after its pioneers died? One which I stand up strongly against, on the side of our pioneers is teaching about trinity. It is better to be called a cult and follow the truth rather then to be called a true church and follow lies. God bless.
3. Thomas Elem 11.28.07 / 1pm

   Stevo, your last sentence should probably read: “But fortunately most of them were NOT as misled as the Worldwide Church of God was …”. I would like to challenge you at two points: a) How many churches have you really witnessed that were willing to get out of their comfort zones once they have established themselves? … and b) Is it really true that only a few churches are as drastically misled as the Worldwide Church of God used to be some year ago?
4. David Carpenter 11.28.07 / 9pm

   This post particularly intrigued me because the man in charge of reconciling with other denominations within the leadership of the World-Wide church of God, Curtis May, is a friend of mine and a fellow board member of African Enterprise USA. They really do have a remarkable story. It is a small world.
5. Jaro Belicka 11.30.07 / 2pm

   Let’s reason together. Just wanted to ask you what did you see wrong with Armstrongism? Also what do you consider wrong with the Seventh-day Adventist Church? I have stood up against some Catholic pillars of faith and sure enough they removed me from all leading position. What I said was that if they can prove me wrong trough the Word of God I will repent and accept what they believed. Until then I cannot reject the truth which is so obvious that I can not understand how come they can not see it.

   When men follow a man (or a woman, which is even worse 1Tim.2:12) rather then The Word of God, then sure they will be disappointed at some stage when they realize that Bible is teaching different from what they have believed. I know a man, in fact more then one, who are so bitter against EG White because they followed her for most of their life only to find something which bother them now. Something which does not suit their current faith. I guess Armstrong was mistaken at some points as well as we all are, but he had some very good things, points too. Should we reject the lot because some mistakes or should we be selective and reject only those things which Bible does not support?
6. Goran Simac 11.30.07 / 3pm

   I’ve viewed both documentaries - Called to be Free and Raptured Ready. I am not quite sure what is it that I really would like to say? Nor are e-mails, chats, blogs and alike my preferred ways of communication. I prefer more personal ways of discussion. But overall what I’ve seen is frightening and totally crazy. Transformation of a cult into a church is a very radical one and encourages me to praise the Lord. On the other hand I am worried when I see a church that still might appear to be a “good one”, and which one still talks about the grace, gradually and steadily shifts into legalism that more and more controls the system. Such church community is no longer able to produce life… which is Jesus Christ himself.
7. Thomas Elem 11.30.07 / 3pm

   Goran, I do not know whether intentionally or not you have put both documentaries together, but I see an analogy. I see a parallel between the way the Worldwide Church of God used to be, and a dispensationalist Evangelical movement of today as portrayed in the Rapture Ready documentary. WCG used to be covered by a veil as it followed Armstrong some twenty years ago, the movements very much popular among Evangelicals today that interpret eschatology in the context of secret rapture, a special apocalyptic role of Israel and alike are at this moment under the veil, dangerously entering cultic waters. I believe this documentary has a much wider appeal that what meets the eye. I completely agree with you, if this is what you’ve meant, that there are many church environments which only at the surface speak the grace language, while on the other hand are actually living and preaching legalism, which may be manifest in all kinds of subliminal forms and shapes.
8. Tihomir Kukolja 12.8.07 / 2pm

   Jaro, in regard to your question regarding Adventism, I believe that much can be learned from the daring experience of WCG. And it should start from an honest revisiting of the 1844 doctrine. Let me suggest something I wrote some fifteen years ago:

   The entire Old Testament, namely Jewish religious system, with its history, fragments, facets - law, tabernacle, liturgy, sacrifices, festivals, observances ­ stood for the old covenant, a shadow, a copy that met its original in Jesus Christ, the Word Incarnate, God’s final and complete revelation to man. By the virtue of his saving work Jesus introduced a new covenant or “the time of the new order”, thus making the old one obsolete (Hebrews 7:22., 8:7.13., 9:10).

   The entire Book of Hebrews makes this clear by stressing the superiority of Jesus in relation to every detail of the old covenant. Thus Jesus stands for ­ a better Moses, (who was the best of the prophets) (3:2.), a better meaning of Sabbath (4:9.), a better priesthood (7:12.24.), a better law (7:12.), a better high priest (7:15.16.26.27.), a better sacrifice (7:27., 9:26., 10:12.), a better ministry (8:6.), a better hope (7:18.), a better promise (8:6.7.), a better covenant (7:22., 8:13., 9:13.), a better order (9:10.11.), a better tabernacle (chapter 9), a better access to the Father (6:19., 10:19-22.)

   To retain elements of the inferior shadowy old covenant as if they were the reality themselves, would mean to veil, undermine, even make a mockery of the impact, importance and significance of the mechanism by which the New Covenant was put into effect; namely the once-and-for-all completed Atonement in the life and death experience of Jesus Christ. It would mean just the same as if one were to proclaim the insufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice. It would also mean to remain unnecessarily under the veil, under the law, dull and blind to the light of the gospel. (2. Corinthians 3:12-16.)

   Expressions such as “after he had provided purification” (1:3.), “having obtained eternal redemption” (9:12.), “appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin” (9:26.), “offered for all time one sacrifice for sins” (10:10.12., 7:27., 9:26.), “entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood “ (9:12.), “he sat down at the right hand of God” (1:3.,. 8:1., 10:12., 12:2.) ­ strongly imply the completed activity, and the one of the most profound importance, namely the finished Atonement, which was followed by His immediate return to the Father’s most immediate presence (Hebrews 9:12.).

   Nowhere in the Book of Hebrews is there a suggestion or a hint that whatever followed His return to his Father’s presence was to be a continuation of the Atonement, nor that the atonement is a phased process with different stages of emphasis. The concept that infuses any kind of ongoing heavenly liturgy into the finished atonement is not far away from the Roman-Catholic concept of Christ who is being continuously sacrificed, every time and whenever the Holy Mass is conducted. Such a concept certainly perverts the gospel of Christ, because the objective nature of the Atonement is lost. In other words, the ongoing heavenly liturgy becomes the ground for my acceptance in addition to the blood of Jesus.

   To go a step further, by claiming that sometimes, at a much later date, commenced “the great antitypical Day of Atonement” equals to making the mockery of the Gospel because it gives another date the redemptive significance which only belongs to the Cross, and to the Cross alone. The ongoing atonement concept confuses a follower of Christ seeking the assurance of salvation. On the contrary, the intercessory ministry of Jesus only makes sense if placed within the context of the-once-and-for-all completed Atonement at the Cross. Christ does not intercede in order to save, but He qualifies to intercede because He has already atoned for our sins.

   It was the finished, successfully completed atonement that empowered Jesus to go boldly, “on behalf of man” (6:19.), “where none had gone before” ­ to the very presence of the Father, to the “consuming fire” (Heb. 12:29.), to the “unapproachable light” (1. Timothy 6:16.), to the very throne of God (Hebrews 8:1.). What no other man could had ever done before due to the damage caused by sin, He achieved by the one sacrifice. His crucified body became the bridge between the two irreparably separate realities ­ earthly and heavenly, never to be un-bridged again. The age of separation, represented by the Holy Place was gone forever, and the age of free access to the Father, represented by the Most Holy Place, had began. Even the veil between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place in the Jewish temple was “torn in two from top to bottom” (Mark 15:38.) at the time of crucifixion, pointing that the end of separation between man and God had gone for good. Through Jesus the access to the Father was now open forever. As C.S. Lewis has put it: “Once crucified Master was now the supreme Agent of the unimaginable Power on whom the whole universe depends”.

   Instead of teaching that Jesus Christ Himself is now involved in a complex heavenly intercessory liturgy, which moves him from one location to another across the heavenly divides, during which process various doors are being closed and opened, the Book of Hebrews acknowldeges only one location - the very presence of God into which believers are being continually invited to enter “with confidence” (Hebrews 4:16.) “as long as it is called today” (Hebrews 3:13.) through a “new and living way” (Hebrews 10:19-22.) - namely through Jesus Christ. Indeed, by faith and on the account of Jesus’s perfect sacrifice, believer may already count himself dwelling in the very presence of God, because “God seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:6.).

   Thus, “The right hand of the Majesty in heaven” (Heb. 1:3. 8:1., 12:2., Acts 6:55.56.), ”the inner sanctuary behind the curtain” (Heb. 6:19. 10.20), “the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord” (Heb. 8:2) and “the Most Holy Place” (Heb. 9:24), even the Mount Zion (12:22.) and the heavenly Jerusalem (12:22.) ­ all stand for one and the same reality which is the very throne of God, the city of the living God (10:22), namely the heaven itself (9:24.), where Christians of all ages have been called to come with confidence, freedom and assurance, since the time of Cross and not since 1844.

   If the Adventist Church desires to move forward it needs to become honest to the centrality of the Gospel in Jesus Christ, that totaly abolishes any affirmative interpretation regarding 1884. Cosmetic changes touching only the cultural aspect of Adventism will not suffice.
9. roy 12.16.07 / 11pm

   this is a great video that few people know about. is it possible to get a download to copy to dvd to witness to those who do not have you tube capabilities?
10. Thomas 1.3.08 / 5am

    Some useful links to watch another church in struggle over its own identity:

    http://www.spectrummagazine.org/blog/2007/12/30/cult_video_debate_walter_martin_v_william_johnsson

    http://www.spectrummagazine.org/blog/2008/01/01/cult_video_debate_walter_martin_vs_william_johnsson_5_14

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